did maddie die on the 2nd May

The weirded out Priest, Chaplin's Restaurant next to the church, Ocean Club, and how and where did they conceal a body if that is what happened?

did maddie die on the 2nd May

Postby bugalugs1970 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:17 pm

Thanks to a link Tim posted i have been able to clarify certain points in my original theory and now the picture appears clear but i would love some challenges to my updated theory to iron out any issues that still niggle in my mind
Theory
1, Maddie died by accident on the 2/5 whilst the mccanns where dining at chaplins
2, Maddie's body was discovered by her parents on their return to 5a
3, Kate held maddie for many hours explaining the scent of death on her clothes, cuddle cat and bible.
4, During this period of kates time with maddie, gerry and russell between them stratgically devised a plan to eliminate child neglect and abandoment charges, there is a link between gm and ro on the grounds of gm being ro's witness in a negl case, possible tool for gm to manipulate ro.
5, Maddies body was moved to the apartment of ro and jt (next door) until it was the time to dispose of her, explaining the scent of death in their apartment and dna trace link to maddie.
6, Gerry and russell versed kate and jane on strategy plans
7, at some time during the night and day of 3/5 maddies body was dumped at sea, this could tie in a link to murat re o'brien/gorrod -property law specialist.
8, the actions of gm, km would have been unobserved and unnoted by any potential witnesses i would expect during the 3/5 prior to 10pm, for the potential witnesses it was just another day.
9, Maddie at creche, have the staff interviewed by the police actually confirmed she was there?, media says so, could this be a police tactic to make the mccanns comfortable, the mccanns have not been privy to any info the pj have from day one and thats fact...
10, photo by pool, it seems quite clear on research that the photo could indeed be a fake, i would suspect the police know this and this is part of their evidence file against the mccanns
11, Dinner at tapas, we all know what was claimed happened from there dont we.
12, why no charges yet - the mccanns have a top notch legal team , elite in their field, the pj know they need a 100% watertight case on the mccanns and to get this it would take time and complex police tactics the latter of which i think they have applied incredibly well.
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Postby RENATA » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:30 am

Hi Buglaugs

I love reading your posts but favoured your less complicated theories.

So I'll play Devils' advocate:

1 With all the speculation doing the rounds re 2 May and Chaplins, why is it still unclear if they went there? Would their movements of this evening not have emerged by now- If significant, I'm sure the press and police have already spoken with the staff at this pub. If Bridget O'Donnell's (an <b>eye witness's </b> account) is accurate the "DOCTORS" as she referred to them were eating at their usual table in the Tapas Bar on the evening of May 2. However, they may have left there and gone on to Chaplins - yes of course, but why is there ambiguity about it. Would by now the staff of Chaplins or customers have come forward to verify or dismiss their presence in the bar on 2 May? Is Chaplins another red herring??

2 MW employees have stated Madeleine was in their care for several hours on May 3rd. If this is true (which I suspect it is) then the <b>evening of 2 May becomes irrelevant</b>. But your post deserves better Buglaugs so I'll prattle on for a bit longer. lol
The MW Creche staff-Why dismiss this <b>eye witness </b> testimony when <b>eye witness </b> testimony is so lacking in this whole case??


3 Why would David Payne lie about seeing the child around 7pm on 3 May (though Coldwater states in his blog it was Oldfield who checked on the McCanns not Payne). He cannot elaborate stating simply this is the information he got from his friends/the sources from which he has based his blog. More muddying of the waters, IMHO, though admittedly a well constructed account Coldwater writes well too which also helps with credability.

5 The Human element-. What sort of Un-Holy <b>Alliance</b> could this group have entered into I hear myself ask, where O,Brien, Tanner, Payne and the MCanns would cover up the death of a child. Then the possible link with Murat and Gorrod, the latter a mere holiday maker (who might happen to live near RO and JT or was it the Paynes- I'm not sure which, sorry.

6 If the fear of child neglect/abandonment charges were pivotal in the formation of this cover-up why not come up with a better plan on the evening of May 3. They or the portion who were conspirators all went out again for dinner, leaving the kids <b>alone</b> yet again. in the knowledge that Madeleine had died whilst being alone on the previous night?, they would have risked that eventuality happening again to the other kids who were even younger?? Why not just open the bedroom shutters in the wee small hours and tell the cops Madeleine was taken whilst they slept next door. Granted the alibi of being in the Tapas bar would not exist but less witnesses eg waiters, quiz hostesses, other diners/holiday makers and presumably the innocent memebers of the T9. Its one thing to be percieved as neglectful parents but what a leap to co-conspirators, aiding and abetting parents in the cover-up and disposal of a little girl not to mention the far more serious consequences each would face if convicted of this.

7 Link to Murat, if he's in it with them (which personally,I find ridiculous) it would make no sense for Clarence Mitchell or Team McCann to remind us of Mr Murat's Arguido status when trying to deflect from their own. Mr Gorrod??, I understand that he was questioned after he hired a child's car seat at Faro Airport and for some reason this seemed significant to the Investigating Team. He does have a 14 month old son.

Finally (IMO)the more people embroiled in a conpiracy, the more likely someone would have confessed/cracked up by now or simply been exposed by half decent Police work. I lean more to the theory that if there was no abduction and Madeleine came to harm by her parents, they acted alone.

A Pleasure as always Buglaugs
Take Care [:)]
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:18 am

renata

thank you kindly for throwing some damn good questions my way
i have compiled some answers however im sure ive missed out some that will be relevant so please nag me if i have

1 - Q Were they at chaplins? A i was unaware that it had been reported that they had been at the tapa bar that night, however it sure is possible that they went on to chaplins. What bothers me about this case is how the pj have been rubbished for being incompetant, i tend to believe that the strict secrecy laws in portugal have in fact been used to their full extent, it is a chargable offence for witnesses to speak publicly of any details given in the offical statements, so i feel maybe the press have in fact been fed red herrings by the pj on many of the stories printed, again this being part of the stratgic planning of the pj to allow the mccanns enough rope to hang themselves with. Also i need to take a deeper look at the witnesses that have allegedly spoken out, for example 'charlotte pennington' strikes me that she just wanted her 5 mins of fame how credible is she really? i remember her waffling on about wanting to be a model etc if the printed interview is to be believed?

2 Q maddie at creche A could jt/ro's daughter have been used in place of maddie, from the pictures ive seen they look very alike, yes yes i know far fetched but how possible is it? Again which nannies actually confirmed that maddie was at the creche that day and how credible are they? did they talk to the press? i find it hard to believe all these witnesses talking to the press and the pj taking no action against them?

3 Q oldfields check 7pm A i have read numerous times that it was oldfield who checked on kate and the kids, not payne, but hey the press get it wrong. Did he really see the kids or was he making that up? Had gm asked him to say he had seen them to cover his arse when it became evident to him that the pj were not swallowing his sorry tale, i dont know exactly when oldfield was questioned about that visit to 5a i will try to find out.

4 Q Gorrod/murat connection A Gorrod and his wife were/are good friends with ro and jt, its strange however how gorrod claimed he did not know that ro and jt were to be in pdl, same complex, at the same time as him and his wife. Now, Gorrod is a brief in property law etc link to murat who is a property developer whose link to exeter is his sister who lives a few streets away from the gorrods who live very close to ro and jt....... yep i know dont say it !!!!!

6 i do have some faith in this theory, in my mind given the mccanns set up ie careers etc this could just be possible.
The mccanns would have panicked on finding maddie dead, how the hell would they explain this terrible accident and come out intact, two professionals leaving 3 under 4's alone while they dined half a mile away, i would think that they contemplated the ramifications immediately, certain loss of career, resulting in loss of home, possible loss of twins. I see gerry as a selfish bugger, amongst other things, he could have thought 'right how can i fix this so minimal damage is done' he has clearly shown his clinical side has he not?.
Ive heard that gm is ro's witness in a case of negligence could he have used that card to embroil ro into this sorry tale, or as you suggested did gm and km deal with it on their own?
i am convinced that maddie died by accident, this resulting from child neglect.

i also have a pool theory which i will try to post, again thanks to another link from tim

come on pj spills the bloody beans for christ sakes if not mine........
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Postby RENATA » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:33 am

Hi Bugalugs

Your like a little terrier [:)] and though I cant buy lots of your theories,... I like your style and really look forward to your posts. I know you are sincere soul.
I am now a little less convinced than I was of the MCanns innocence than say a month ago and you can take some credit for that Bugalugs. But what really turned the tide for me wasnt all the bloggers and theories doing the rounds - I still think most of them are nonsense- it was watching their very rehearsed interviews which I had never really bothered to look at before. The two that stick out were the first two with BBC- Jane Hill and SKYS Ian Woods. During the Sky one Woods ask her to describe how she discovered Madeleine was gone. Her body language just said to me - this woman is hiding something and Gerry looked most uncomfortable when she talked as though terrified she couldnt pull it off. She began "it was during my check, <b>immedaitely </b> corrected herself to saying <b>one</b> of my checks and suddenly I thought you only did one bloomin check and I couldnt get that out of my head. Nuts I know.

See you later
Take care
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:47 am

renata

"terrier" audiable lol...... give me a bone (or ankle) and i'll bite, at least you didnt call me a "spartan dog"
im in full agreement with you on the 'people watching' aspect, thats what got me to doubt their story, i swallowed their tale for several months until i started observing with deep interest their reactions and claims in more detail.
i dont believe any theory doing the rounds on forums etc will have the full tale, its not possible, but im confident that the pj are going to charge the mccanns and that a conviction will follow for manslaughter based on gross child neglect (dont know if my legal term are correct but i know you'll get my drift).

off to research about propagation now (yawn), im sooooooo behind
take care
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Postby purrfect_catlover » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:12 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RENATA</i>
<br />

1 With all the speculation doing the rounds re 2 May and Chaplins, why is it still unclear if they went there? Would their movements of this evening not have emerged by now- If significant, I'm sure the press and police have already spoken with the staff at this pub. If Bridget O'Donnell's (an <b>eye witness's </b> account) is accurate the "DOCTORS" as she referred to them were eating at their usual table in the Tapas Bar on the evening of May 2. However, they may have left there and gone on to Chaplins - yes of course, but why is there ambiguity about it. Would by now the staff of Chaplins or customers have come forward to verify or dismiss their presence in the bar on 2 May? Is Chaplins another red herring??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RENATA</i>
<br />Hi Buglaugs

1 With all the speculation doing the rounds re 2 May and Chaplins, why is it still unclear if they went there? Would their movements of this evening not have emerged by now- If significant, I'm sure the press and police have already spoken with the staff at this pub. If Bridget O'Donnell's (an <b>eye witness's </b> account) is accurate the "DOCTORS" as she referred to them were eating at their usual table in the Tapas Bar on the evening of May 2. However, they may have left there and gone on to Chaplins - yes of course, but why is there ambiguity about it. Would by now the staff of Chaplins or customers have come forward to verify or dismiss their presence in the bar on 2 May? Is Chaplins another red herring??

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Renata

Actually Bridget Odonell never mentions they were EATING the tapas 9 that is:

<b>We had booked a table for two at Tapas and were placed next to the Doctors' regular table. One by one, they started to arrive. The men came first. Gerry McCann started chatting across to Jes about tennis. Gerry was outgoing, a wisecracker, but considerate and kind, and he invited us to join them. We discussed the children. He told us they were leaving theirs sleeping in the apartments. While they chatted on, I ruminated on the pros and cons of this. I admired them, in a way, for not being paranoid parents, but I decided that our apartment was too far off even to contemplate it. Our baby was too young and I would worry about them waking up.

My phone rang as our food arrived; our baby had woken up. I walked the round trip to collect him from the kiddie club, then back to the restaurant. He kept crying and eventually we left our meal unfinished and walked back again to the club to fetch our sleeping daughter. Jes carried her home in a blanket. The next night we stayed in. It was Thursday, May 3.</b>

Strange also she doesnt even mention KATE ARRIVING does she.

She doesnt even mention what time this is.

Let's say it is early and kate is still in the apartment on the 2nd getting the kids settled for bed. Perhaps by the time kate arrived to join the group Bridget O'donell and her partner have already left.

Then the group together could have gone to chaplains.

Another strange thing.

On 3rd May bridget O'Donell said this:

Jes saw Gerry that night.

<b>Our baby would not sleep and at about 8.30pm, Jes took him out for a walk in the buggy to settle him. Gerry was on his way back from checking on his children and the two men stopped to have a chat.</b>

She writes this as though gerry bumped into Jes almost immediately he went out. Well was gerry on his way to the TAPAS at this time, as if it was the 9.15 sighting by Tanner then gerry and wilkins met twice and someone is lying? I would hardly think that wilkins would be walking aimlessy around for an hour to meet gerry at 9.15, not when bridget states Gerry bumped into him as he went out with the baby.

Also on the 3rd May Gerry states quite clearly that he met his friends at the Tapas on the 3rd including the person he had been playing tennis with. Well Wilkins did not go to the TAPAS ON THE 3RD, only the 2nd. So is there a deliberate bit of confusion been put down by someone.????

I can see where bugalugs1970 is coming from.

I think that if it isnt proven that maddie was in the creche on the 3rd then she did die on the 2nd. Either way I think her parents had something to do with it. There is no evidence of an abduction, and nice people do bad things when their backs are against the wall.
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:12 pm

purrfect catlover

intersting post indeed, you have thrown me a nugget of info worthy of extensive research

i'll be back...........lol
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:25 pm

renata

hope your good today - woof woof.........
i forgot i had already posted a basic "pool" theory see
'tapas 9 - 1pm may 2nd to 10pm may 3rd'

have a read and let me know your thoughts when you get time...
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Postby jigsawjake » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 pm

plus it is written as if it was the first time they had met and they didnt know each other, yet earlier in the day gerry and wilkins had played tennis, so they must have spoken.
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Postby K.keesha » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:02 am

Bugalugs

** Oldfield's check on Kate at 7pm
In my opinion, he wasn't there to check on Kate, he was LOOKING FOR GERRY, because the guys had booked a tennis tournament and GERRY WAS MISSING. Then Gerry allegedly said he missed tennis because of a sore achilles heel, but then a day or too later he was seen jogging..

** The EXETER connection, there must be something in it with so many people knowing each other before the PDL trip. I think there is a DEVON connection too, I can check up if you wish. There are rumours Murat's late maternal grandma was named Madeleine and he has a 4 year old neice named Amelie..and so it goes on
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:43 pm

keesha

you could be right perhaps that was when oldfield was sucked into the coverup, only they know the truth.

as for murat i cannot get it out of my head on the exeter connection im sure there is a link in there somewhere.

[:)]

"Anything i say is said because i care, i want the truth and justice for those that have suffered"
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:02 am

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=36722

thread did maddie die 2/5

"Anything i say is said because i care, i want the truth and justice for those that have suffered"
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Postby K.keesha » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:09 pm

Hey bugalugs
you know when you do that little yellow smilie after some of the replies (I've noticed them all over the place) does that mean the reply is "on track" ??
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Postby Sad Git » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:30 pm

Keesha: Emoticons:- used to convey emotions,concepts, etc.

[:)] friendly

[:(] sad

[;)] ironic

"\_/"" = = = Starship Enterprise, firing phasers

@@@@8^) Marge Simpson

;:) William shatner, with hairpiece

etc,etc
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Postby bugalugs1970 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:31 pm

k keesha

yeah sort of

[:)]

also me just being nice and smiling at you..................lol

"Anything i say is said because i care, i want the truth and justice for those that have suffered"
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